Question:
Do evolutionists distort the definition of science to somehow try an bolster the theory of evolution?
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Do evolutionists distort the definition of science to somehow try an bolster the theory of evolution?
Fifteen answers:
secretsauce
2009-06-01 09:57:28 UTC
>"Do evolutionists distort the definition of science to somehow try an bolster the theory of evolution?"



No. And I can prove it.



If 'evolutionists' had to distort the definition of science in order to accommodate evolution into biology ... then that very distortion would show up in its inconsistency with other accepted fields of science. I.e. it would be inconsistent with the methods and results of physics, chemistry, astronomy, geology, etc. If one claims (as many Creationists do) that 'evolutionism' is the spread of this "distortion" from biology to these other fields ... that the physicists, chemists, astronomers, geologists, etc. are all conspiring with the biologists to "distort" their own fields to be consistent with evolution, then this just spreads the accusation of "distortion" to all of science.



Such a "distortion" would be collapsing science itself into incoherence.



E.g. if the physicists had to "distort" the scientific method and the science of radioactivity in order to falsify the results of radiometric data, and 'adjust' the actual age of the earth from 6,000 years old to 4.55 billion years old (as a favor to the 'evolutionist' biologists) ... then such a COLOSSAL "distortion" would make all of physics an unworkable, inconsistent mess. Or if the astrophysicists had to "distort" the speed and other properties of light in order to force a false conclusion of the age of the universe of 14 billion years, then the entire science of astronomy has no basis. Or if the second law of thermodynamics really disproved the compexity and energy claims required by evolution, then snowflakes would be unexplainable, and refrigerators would not work. If biochemists and geneticists had to "distort" the science of DNA or the mechanisms of mutations in order to make evolution possible, then the science of biochemistry and genetics would again be an inconsistent, incoherent mess. Science itself would be a mess of inconsistency and illogic collapsing under the weight of the "distortions" needed to accommodate something as monumental, and monumentally "wrong", as evolution.



There is absolutely NO SIGN of any such collapse of the entirety of science. There is absolutely NO SIGN of the kind of monumental "distortion" that would be required to accommodate evolution if it was indeed as absurdly WRONG as the Creationists claim it is.



>"Is it no longer a form of epistemology which is based solely on what can be observed, tested and repeated in the present? "



Of course it is. That has not changed. That is precisely why questions about God, or life after death, or any question to do with the supernatural, is out-of-bounds for science if it does not leave testable, observable, repeatable evidence. That doesn't mean these are 'False', only that they are out-of-bounds for scientific inquiry.



But be careful with that word 'repeated.' It is a common mistake made by people who don't understand the concept of 'repeatability', that science can only concern itself with repeatable *phenomena*. This is False, and has always been False. It is the *observations* that must be repeatable ... not the phenomenon itself. Otherwise we could know nothing about the birth of stars, the formation of mountains, the erosion of beaches, the causes of hurricanes and earthquakes, or for that matter, the growth of 800-year-old redwood trees. These are all *non-repeatable* phenomena that can be studied using repeatable *observations*.



>" I've heard it said by one of the members on here that science does not prove anything, and can only suggest testable explanations for the workings of nature, is this really true?"



Yes that's true. (I'm one of those members who say that.)



The concept of "proof" is one of logic. When something is "proved", it can never be "unproved." It's truth is no longer subject to question. As such it is a concept of mathematics, where a statement is "proved" based on rules of logic alone.



But science is not based on logic alone, but on *EVIDENCE*. Observations are essential, but observations can be deceptive.



Consider the simple observation of the "motion" of the sun across the sky every day. That is a deceptive observation. One must look closer, take more observations, be willing to reinterpret that self-evident observation of the "motion" of the sun and be willing to "unprove" the obvious conclusion that the sun is "moving." That is the type of thinking that Copernicus started and Galileo nailed down ... observations can at any time be shown to be misleading by making new observations.



Thus the truth of *ANY* statement in science is contingent (dependent) on the evidence used to support it. Nothing is ever considered "beyond question." Ever. Ever. Ever.



The best we can hope for are testable explanations for the observations we know about.



This is not a "distortion" of epistemology. This is not something "new." This is reflected in Kuhn, in Popper, in Carnap, going way back to Kant ... but also to Hume, Hegel, Descartes (the only things we can be *sure* of are not observations but the act of thought itself), going back to Aristotle (a key split from Plato). It is reflected in the philosophy of science from Galileo to Bacon to Newton to Leibnitz right up to Einstein to almost any modern scientist like the late Feynman or the current Hawking.



It is a long-standing central tenet of scientific epistemology that science is NOT something "absolute" ruled by some concept of definitive "proof." Science is always always always *contingent*. Even someone like Newton, who you would think was an absolutist, if you read about his philosophy it becomes clear that the very reason he was successful because he was an empiricist and reductionist ... he valued observations but always recognized that observations can be deceptive and must be constantly revised with *closer* observations.



>"And if science doesn't actually prove anything what constitutes a scientific fact? "



A "fact" in science is not "proved" to be true. It is *OBSERVED* to be true.



Thus even "facts" are subject to revision!



(Such as the "fact" that the sun "moves" across the sky. Or the "facts" of Newtonian physics that were revised by Einstein and relativity.)



So no. Evolution is absolutely consistent with a long history of scientific epistemology.



There is absolutely no *REASON* science would abandon or "distort" this epistemology to accommodate evolution or any other concept if it was not *fundamentally* consistent with with that epistemology. Such a fundamental distortion would collapse science ... and scientists are not so STUPID that they would be unaware of this.



The only REASON claimed by Creationists for some sort of wholesale abandonment of basic scientific principles by the bulk of the scientific community, is some sort of deep-seated prejudicial commitment to *atheism*. But there is absolutely no evidence of this ... especially when at least 40% of scientists self-identify as believing in God. (Read Francis Collins, Ken Miller, Francisco Ayala, etc. ... all devout theist Christians, all biologists, and all 'evolutionists' ... all strident examples of how evolution is NOT rooted in atheism.) The fact that scientists ... both within and outside of biology ... and among equal numbers of theists, atheists, and agnostics ... overwhelmingly accept evolution, is testament to the fact that it simply CANNOT be fundamentally inconsistent with basic scientific epistemology.



----



P.S. In case anybody accuses me of being inconsistent ... when I said in my first sentence "No. And I can prove it." this is NOT inconsistent with my claim that statements in science cannot be "proved."



When I said, I can "prove it", I don't mean 'prove that evolution is true', I mean 'prove that evolution is consistent with long-standing scientific epistemology.' Big difference. The latter is not a statement of science, it is a statement of logic. It is proved not because of observations, but because science would be *logically* untenable if it were "distorted" to the extent necessary to accommodate an inconsistent theory as huge as evolution is.
2009-06-01 04:57:20 UTC
> Do evolutionists distort the definition of science to somehow try an bolster the theory of evolution?



No. Thanks for asking.
gardengallivant
2009-06-01 17:10:38 UTC
Proof in a general use means demonstrable, tangible, that it is established by a carefully controlled test. ie clinically proven is synonymous with clinically tested or demonstrated with data in a statistically large group. A clinical trial tests the hypothesis that a medication is effective in a specific treatment for a specific disease. The trial is done in as controlled a manner as possible. The observed results offer a limited proof with targeted conditions and subjects that the drug acts on humans in a manner consistent with results achieved with animals and in tissue culture or cell free assay. With many short and long term clinical trials the drug is proven, meaning it is tested. The collective test results accumulate to achieve this status. Once enough evidence is collected the drug is deem sufficiently tested to release to the public. In this sense the proof is statistical. For most people the drug is safe but contraindications are always expected because people are so variable.

A proof is a specific demonstration or test, a galley sheet is still known as a proof sheet. This is a way to test the quality of a printers work. Not all printers work just the current type setting. Thus proof has come to mean the resulting validation as well as the test itself. However each sheet must still be tested for errors even though the concept of printing has long been established to work.



Blood does go around the body except that vascular system is not always the same. Embryos first has to grow the vasculature then as adults women experience angiogenesis in their menstrual cycles so day to day they do not have the same circulatory system any more than the embryo did during vasculogenesis. So on one level we have plenty of documentation to support the theory of blood circulation but we have yet to understand all the interactions of the factors that control the timing, location and type of vasculature that grows at the many stages of life.

We are only just learning how the vessels are first directed to grow then differentiated. Blood vessels are not randomly placed or uniform but neither are they static they can repair damage and even seek alternate paths. All of this is still to be determined but the basic theory of blood circulation is well supported by all the data even if large areas are unknown.

The theory of evolution is rooted in two other basic theories of biology. That the basic unit of all life is the self-organizing, self replicating cell and that the self replication is variable so no two individuals in a breeding population are exactly alike. The methods of variation are themselves complex and only just becoming evident with the many genomic sequencing projects. We find lateral movement of information as well as several methods of gene/genomic duplication. Given the basic and constant rate of mutation inherent in limited editing functions during meiotic replication combined with the larger but less common introductions of information from gene transfers and gene duplications we have plenty of material to provide species with the ability to adapt to their habitats by differential survival selecting the most suitable members of each generation.

We determine that species change easily today by sequencing a typical sample of their population's DNA to see what frequency the various alleles are presenting themselves in each generation.
KTDykes
2009-06-01 03:55:13 UTC
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I've no idea what an 'evolutionist' is seeing as I've never heard of anything called 'evolutionism'.



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I see you're distorting the definition of science in order to construct some pointless little word game.
2009-06-01 14:33:54 UTC
the person who said that likely meant that PROOF is a mathematical and philosophical concept an that science works on the basis of evidence





you have to realize that layed terminology is NOT the same as scientific





"I mean hasn't it been scientifically proven that blood goes around the body by way of a double circulation system or that myocardial infactions are caused by block coronary arteries"



no, it has not

it's been shown beyond reasonable doubt.. there could still be a heart attack (don't know why you chose to use the word myocardial infarction, which you misspelled BTW) that WASN'T cause by aterial blockage...



science is what's observed to be true... observation does not mean "seeing" you can observe wind flow without seeing the wind

you can observe continental drift without seeing new continents form

and you can observe evolution without seeing a monkey turn into a housecat (as creationists seem to think it works)
2009-06-01 06:17:11 UTC
Science is about the testing of ideas an d principles to reach a conclusion based on observable data, the hypothesis set, data collected and the conclusion reached remains the same until new ideas gather and are supported by alternative data, it then becomes the new accepted idea, this is called paradigmatic shift. As a scientist therefore evolution must have occurred as I have no evidence that creationism occurred other than a very good book, but then Dawkins writes a good tale too!



Jeanette



Jeanette
2009-06-01 05:03:33 UTC
There is no such thing as an evolutionist. People who study evolution may be biologists mathematicians or any type of scientist.



There are facts in science - that are established by investigation. You are right about circulation being a fact - you can watch a single molecule travel round the circulatory system and measure oxygen tensions in the blood at any given point - but before anatomy was studied systematically and then physiology the nature of circulation was unknown and various theories would have had to have been eliminated before we finally understood the circulatory system.



When it comes to evolution, it is important to understand the differences between the process - evolution happens - there were once only marine creatures, the dinosaurs existed in an earlier era there were once hippos in Britain. So the flora and fauna and earth change over time. How this happens is still not fully understood - the fossil record is a snapshot of different eras on life. Natural selection as described by Darwin can be observed in populations including humans, while neutral evolution (Kimura) is also seen. This is not the

whole story however and we are still at the stage of juggling lots of possibilities for the major transitions in life and some of the finer details. DNA may ultimately reveal a lot more of the answers but this is a science still in its infancy.
Katri-Mills
2009-06-02 10:47:35 UTC
Proving biology as fact is... pretty much impossible. You can say that it is statistically significant, but you can't prove it. I take biology at university and if I mention that I have proved something in an essay or exam then I get marked down for it, because you just can't say that. In biology, you can collect evidence in support of an argument to the point where it almost becomes fact, but if someone turfs up evidence that suggests you're wrong, then that 'fact' is considered a theory again, and a debatable argument evolves. That is what is meant by a theory in science, in particular in biological science, there is mass amounts of evidence to support the claim, but someone has contested it or the evidence is not quite enough, so it remains a theory.



The theory of evolution is really as close as it can be to fact. But because some people, mostly creationists, keep throwing up 'evidence' (most of which has been proved wrong) that 'intelligent design' or 'God' is at work, it remains a theory. The trouble with telling the creationists where to get off is that evolution is not something you can view during your lifetime, it is not observable, so it is not possible to prove for definite. The few cases that have been seen, such as convergent evolution in butterflies, bulk up the evidence pile for evolution and help to force the case, but some people don't see it as proof.



However, proving biochemistry as fact is a different story. Injecting a radioactive solution into the blood stream and tracking its progress as it spreads throughout the body proves how the circulation system works. It is undisputable because the traces of radioactive material do not multiply and rarely reduce in number (except when they lose their radioactivity). This isn't theory because it is observed, it happens every time and so is reproducible, and it is independent of pretty much all external factors (unlike evolution which is dependent upon just about every external factor possible) which is why it is reproducible.



So in conclusion, you can prove biochemistry because results are observed and unaffected by many external factors. Biology and medicine are harder to prove because they are dependent upon many factors, for example, biology depends a lot upon ecology (interactions between living things and their environment which can be alarmingly and infuriatingly unpredictable at times), and for a medicine to work it depends upon what sort of environment the medication is working in to determine the extent to which it acts as an effective treatment.
dscharge
2009-06-01 02:39:45 UTC
Scientific fact is when all the evidences you are having are proving your theory and more evidences are unlikely. E.g. in the bood circulation you put in the example.

This is very rare however because no true scientists rejecting the idea that there are more so far unknown things what may put the theory in a new light.

The theory of evolution is however not a fact but a theory as its name is saying. The theory in the name doesn't mean it is not true it means all the evidences are proving the theory but there might be other things we are not aware right now.
gribbling
2009-06-03 02:07:41 UTC
> "Do evolutionists distort the definition of science to somehow try an bolster the theory of evolution?"



Actually, no. That's the bailiwick of Intelligent Design proponents.



> "What does science actually mean?"



From wiktionary: "The collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific method; the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline."

From the same source, the definition of "scientific method" is:

"A method of discovering knowledge about the natural world based in making falsifiable predictions (hypotheses), testing them empirically, and developing peer-reviewed theories that best explain the known data."



> "I've heard it said by one of the members on here that science does not prove anything, and can only suggest testable explanations for the workings of nature, is this really true?"



It is indeed true.



> "I mean hasn't it been scientifically proven that blood goes around the body by way of a double circulation system or that myocardial infactions are caused by block coronary arteries?"



These have been *observed* to be true, but have not been *proved*.

Proof is found in mathematics and in logic, not in science.



> "And if science doesn't actually prove anything what constitutes a scientific fact?"



"Facts" in science are *observations*.

Theories are proposed dependent on those observations, but the theories are never proved.



Science, in general, makes two kinds of statements: LAWS and THEORIES.



A Law is an observation. So the Law of Gravity says that all matter attracts all other matter in a manner proportionate to their masses and inversely proportionate to their distance of separation. It just notes that this happens, and provides no explanation for how or why this happens.



The Theory, then, is that explanation. So the Theory of Gravity says that there is a force, called "gravity" which is responsible for this attraction. This cannot be proved, as it is always possible that an alternative explanation will someday be formulated which will fit the observations better (or new observations will be made which contradict the theory).



The same is true for evolution.

We can observe that populations of organisms change in their characteristics over time (antibiotic-resistant bacteria, industrial melanism of the peppered moth, new 'flu strains arising, etc.) - so this could be called the "Law of Evolution".



The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is the explanation for how this happens (by Natural Selection), and what the consequences are.
?
2016-03-01 00:08:48 UTC
Do you know what "Theory" means in a scientific context? No you don't. Conspiracy Theory is not a scientific theory, nothing really science, just paranoia. This is why Evolution is in class, because it is a science and is supported by a large body of evidence. Religion however cannot be taught in schools, public schools anyway. Religion is not fact, but more Truth, but the function of schools is not to preach truth, but facts, science, math, etc. Read now please you Creationist: A theory is a scientific explanation of an observed phenomenon. Unlike laws, theories actually explain why things are the way they are. Theories are what science is for. If, then, a theory is a scientific explanation of a natural phenomena, ask yourself this: "What part of that definition excludes a theory from being a fact?" The answer is nothing! There is no reason a theory cannot be an actual fact as well.
2009-06-01 02:47:34 UTC
Yes R.A, I think they do.

Thankfully, science is necessarily, (imperatively) forever open and a "proven by fact" enigma or phenomenon. Science is important and should never be discounted at whim, we learn as we go along.

I guess, if certain scientists were not personally bigoted and actively involved in their causes, half the confirmed facts and statistics we now accept in every walk of scientific development, wouldn't exist in tthe first place?

I agree with you though, it's a fascinating subject.
Juan
2017-02-19 17:48:37 UTC
1
Z
2009-06-01 02:39:00 UTC
The people who say that science does not prove anything are called creationists and they are idiots who need to accept the truth. Evolutionists promote what can be proven and backed up. Your questions are explained by common sense, research, and the ability to block out the educational baracade that is religion.
2009-06-01 02:57:51 UTC
Your eyes have been opened,congrats: There is proven to be absolutely no evidence of any sort for evolution,even Darwin questioned his theory. However with new technology there is a lot supporting creation.One book of many which has some pretty heavy material supporting creation is CREATION,Remarkable Evidence of God's Design.Author is Dr.Grant R. Jeffery.Publisher is Frontier Research publishers.Same author also has several other enlightening books, as well as books by Dr.Robert Morris of the San Diego Creation Research Institute. It may well benefit you and all other readers to go to a library or book store and get a copy.Kinda like a science fiction movie popping out of tv,but it is not fiction,but real.


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